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Saturday, April 15, 2017

Strong female characters

It's always interesting, and amusing, to listen to science fiction writers debate the topic of "strong female characters", particularly in the modern context of Princess Kung-Fu. That, of course, is the unstoppable martial art practiced solely on film, by every kick-ass female character who appears on screen.

And everyone - everyone - does it. Even those who correctly criticize the Buffies and Emma Peels do it in their own way. Consider Declan Finn describing what he presumably considers to be more realistic versions of female fighters:
Five-feet tall (really 4’11”) Goldberg is a computer nerd. She used to work for the NSA, but went over to the Secret Service to audit security, since she’s not tall enough to jump in front of Presidents. Her fights included: punching someone in the balls, and dropping low and cutting their Achilles tendons.
This reveals the fundamental problem with science fiction writers: they don't get into fights. Oh, they are more inclined than most to get into word spats and verbal scrums, and even to engage in the proverbial handbags at dawn, but virtually none of them, of either sex, have ever punched anyone in the face, or been punched in the face.

For example, any time anyone mentions "punching someone in the balls" as an effective fighting technique, you know they have never actually seen anyone get struck in that manner in a combat situation. You see, there is this useful little substance called adrenaline that tends to fire up when people are engaged in combat of one form or another. It is why someone who is shot five times in the chest can nevertheless stagger forward and bury a machete in a policeman's head. It is why someone can have a black belt's sidekick ride up his extended leg, crush his balls between the heel and the pubic bone, and nevertheless continue fighting at full speed for 90 seconds without even slowing down.

And then, after the round was over, grimace, sink to his knees, and ask those who'd been watching, "did he hit me below the belt or something?" I once got my nose broken in a ring fight and didn't even notice it. You can't write about potentially lethal combat and ignore the effects of adrenaline. Actual conversation from my fighting days:

Vox: Why'd they stop the fight?
Alex: It's the rule. Have to stop the bleeding.
Vox: Who's bleeding?
Alex: You are. Like a stuck pig.

As for "dropping low" to attack someone's Achilles tendons - plural, no less - that sounds like a wonderful way to get kicked in the face. There is a good reason wrestlers go for the waist, not directly for the legs, after all.

Seriously, no writer should even think about writing a hand-to-hand scene until he - or she - has been punched full-force in the face by a strong man and by a weak woman. Nor should he do it until he has punched both a strong man and a weak woman in the face. Better yet, exchange blows with a strong woman and a weak man too. The experience will absolutely prove educational and should suffice to illustrate how utterly absurd 99 percent of all hand-to-hand combat in film and fiction is. I mean, one might more reasonably, more convincingly, just give the woman wings and a devil's tail, with which combination she defeats bigger, faster, stronger men by flying out of their reach, wrapping her tail around their neck, and strangling them.

Of course, even then, a sufficiently strong and alert man would simply grab her tail and bounce her face off the ground. All right, strike that, all the succubi don't know kung fu.

Anyhow, if you would like to read a much more realistic depiction of how hand-to-hand combat in science fiction would work in any universe where F still equals MA, I suggest reading "The Amazon Gambit" from Forbidden Thoughts, set in the Quantum Mortis universe. I wrote it, in part, to illustrate the one way the women can be effectively used in combat.

However, comic readers need not worry. Alt-Hero will certainly contain female superheroines such as Dynamique, Kosmik Girl, Vespra, and La Fille Furie. And they will be lethal superhumans who kick prodigious ass, they simply will not necessarily be able to match fists with the likes of Capitán Europa, the head of the European Commission's Global Justice Initiative, or Michael Martel, better known as Hammer.

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183 Comments:

Blogger NO GOOGLES April 15, 2017 5:06 AM  

It is rather easy to tell if someone has no actual fighting experience when they talk about fighting. The most common tell is that they think they can just do some kind of specific attack and that it will work - as if their opponent is not going to resist or put up a fight. The "drop low and cut Achilles tendons" kind of thing only works if you have achieved tactical surprise.

Actually getting stories from people who have experience the combat they are writing about is such a treat though. Some good film examples are the gunplay in Michael Mann's movies.

Blogger SteelPalm April 15, 2017 5:08 AM  

Yeah, I just read that post since Jeffro linked to it on the CH Blog, and was scratching my head. Then again, Declan Finn uses pro wrestlers as examples.

As a former amateur boxer who has done BJJ, it's difficult for me to quantify how seismic the differences are.

Consider Lucia Rijker. She is widely considered not only the greatest female kickboxer who has ever lived, but the greatest female boxer as well.

She had an undefeated kickboxing record of 36 wins (25 KOs), 0 losses, and 1 draw, with 4 world titles.

In boxing, she had 17 wins (14 KOs), and 0 losses, with 2 more world titles.

No woman ever beat her.

Rijker was so feared and revered that when she, at the age of 40, and having fought at 135 and 140 pounds, challenged Laila Ali, then 30 and fighting at 165+ pounds, avoided her like the plague.

However, when Rijker was 25 and at the peak of her kickboxing career, she fought a man.

They were of similar size. Rijker was 5' 7" and weighed in at 58 kilograms.

Her opponent was 59 kilograms and looks to be about 5' 5". While he was a decent young fighter at 21 years old and a record of 13-1, among men he was nowhere near the elite Muy Thai contenders of his weight class.

You can observe what happens;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2QgDWSfQik

Keep in mind this is arguably the greatest female kickboxer AND boxer of all time going up against a decent, but forgettable male pro.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable April 15, 2017 5:08 AM  

Good point. The real-life effects of violence are poorly understood by writers of many genres, and I say that as someone who has experienced only 50% of your combat scenarios. I will add that if you've ever been down on the ground on the receiving end of a series of kicks, you're not getting up any time soon.

Blogger Koanic April 15, 2017 5:18 AM  

Everyone knows that an aircraft carrier fights through her interceptors and escorts.

A combat incubator is no different!

Anonymous parz April 15, 2017 5:46 AM  

Correia has actual fighting experience and yet he writes characters like that. It's fiction, ffs. Buncha geeks find kung fu princesses like Buffy hot, buncha woman want to be them. It's titillating for ones, empowering for others.

Anonymous Who Dat April 15, 2017 5:47 AM  

That was one of the many things I enjoyed about the movie The Kingdom. Watching Jennifer Garner get picked up and thrown around needing a male to save her. It was quite refreshing to see a bit of reality in a woman's fight scene and that movie is 10 years old. Hollywood has gotten much worse since then.

Anonymous Kreator April 15, 2017 5:49 AM  

Moot and silly question but regardless I will ask it:

What about videogames? I mean games like Final Fantasy and Witcher where your sword can pierce a golem's full scale stone hide and Street Fighter and Tekken where you can launch your opponent in the air with your fist.

Blogger SteelPalm April 15, 2017 5:59 AM  

@5

I haven't read all his books, but I recall Correia's female protagonists shooting guns, not fighting hand-to-hand.

Anonymous Steve April 15, 2017 6:01 AM  

Never ceases to be cringeworthy how these doughy dweebs think "strong" female character = a pink palette swap of Conan the Barbarian.

Also the muh strong female characters fetish in general, which is mostly a creepy male feminist thing. Jane Austen somehow managed to write enduring female characters without having Miss Elizabeth Bennett Jap-slap Mr Collins in the Pemberleys.

So how about more well written female characters? More entertaining female characters? More original female characters?

DAUGHTER OF DANGER features a splendidly written, yugely memorable, and fun pair of girl protagonists whose strengths are perfectly believable, both in the context of the magical world they inhabit and as definitely female characters, and not some lazily sketched distaff counterpart of Chuck Norris.

Blogger VD April 15, 2017 6:06 AM  

Correia has actual fighting experience and yet he writes characters like that. It's fiction, ffs.

And yet, his readers love the realistic approach he takes to firearms. And, I presume, would, complain if he wrote about Sig Sauers with unlimited ammunition, thought-guided bullets, and nuclear-tipped rounds.

Hey, it's just fiction, FFS....

Blogger VD April 15, 2017 6:15 AM  

Keep in mind this is arguably the greatest female kickboxer AND boxer of all time going up against a decent, but forgettable male pro.

The interesting thing is that she did all right when they simply traded technique. She's actually quite good, although you can see that he quickly learns to disregard her ability to hurt him. However, once she foolishly decides to trade punches with him and goes after him, it's over. Two punches is all it takes, and she's down and out.

What about videogames?

Complete and shameless lack of realism is a strength in most games. It is a weakness in film and fiction.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 15, 2017 6:19 AM  

This trend in fiction has become so all pervasive it is now threat to our national security. Both the Left and the Paul Ryan Right are so lost in that fever dream that they refuse to accept on the ground results that women in line units lower the line units capability.

Our last retard of a SecDef ripped up a Marine Corps report on that reality and blamed the Marine Corps for it. Hell, Mattis who KNOWS better doesn't look like he's going to do anything about it.

There was a young Woman Marine in my shop who was twenty years old and had a second degree black belt.

You have never heard anyone talk so much shit in your life as this chick did. She simply would not shut up about how much of a bad ass she was and just how certain she was that she could take anyone in the unit due to the super powers imbued by her black belt. She was 5'5 and weighed 120 lbs.

Finally her constant in your face trash-talking pissed off "Smitty" who invited her to, "step-up." She was genuinely delighted to have the opportunity show off. So under my Staff Sergeant's supervision and "completely without my knowledge" they squared off.

Let me say first of all, I am a big guy and no wall flower in the Pit of Respect and fighting "Smitty" would not be on the top of my to do list.

She started with a leg sweep. (*I know Vox is laughing at that*) "Smitty" shook his leg as if it stung a little and then stepped in to pound her on the temple with a wild if inelegant haymaker. She was knocked clean out.

Naturally everyone else in the shop immediately tried to white knight like crazy and jump on "Smitty". But my Staff Sergeant shut them down. "No! She wanted this. She knew the terms when she went in. She. Wanted. This. To. Happen."

I will say she actually learned her lesson. She was never that, in your face, again. I guess she had figured out that the wind that was in her sails had been artificial all along.

Blogger Dirtnapninja April 15, 2017 6:22 AM  

As for pain and adrenaline..

I know a guy who was putting on a demonstration of armoured fighting at the Royal Ontario Museum. He was struck with a half sword thrust that somehow got inside the mail armour he was wearing and impaled him through the arm pit. It was a very quick thing and he didnt realise he had been seriously injured until the blood began to show through, and even then it had to be pointed out to him. It was only once the demo was stopped that he began to feel anything.

Blogger J A Baker April 15, 2017 6:27 AM  

What would be more realistic is a woman who lies manipulates, instigates and uses her sexuality to pit the much stronger men against each other, and while they fight it out she is free to achieve what ever goal it is she's after.

Either that or you can have a 250-300 pound bruiser named Bertha who drinks to much coffee brandy and goes into berserker mode.

Blogger Lazarus April 15, 2017 6:29 AM  

La Fille Furie should look like Marine Le Pen

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 15, 2017 6:31 AM  

Looking at this from another angle. These aren't strong female characters at all. These are all dudes with tits.

There is nothing female about them.


I think the most realistic moment for a superheroine in any movie was in the Incredibles when Elastic Girl (AKA Super-Mom) in the middle of assaulting Syndrome's Island Fortress, stops to check out her butt in a mirror.

These characters are so antifeminine sooner or later they end up going lesbian because it just feels right to the male SJWs who write this swill.

Blogger SteelPalm April 15, 2017 6:43 AM  

@11

The interesting thing is that she did all right when they simply traded technique. She's actually quite good, although you can see that he quickly learns to disregard her ability to hurt him. However, once she foolishly decides to trade punches with him and goes after him, it's over. Two punches is all it takes, and she's down and out.

Yeah, Lucia Rijker's technique is very good, and they're the same size...but there is just a massive physical difference.

Rijker fully realizes this when she checks a leg kick in round 1, only to get nearly swept off her feet. You can see the utter shock on her face. There was nothing special to that leg kick, she checked it properly, and had good balance. Yet, she almost landed on her butt from the sheer force.

In the beginning of the second round, Rijker opens up and decides to go toe-to-toe. And she is catching the male opponent with solid punches. Blows that would knock out any woman in the world around that weights.

But the male fighter just walks right through them. And when he lands a couple of his own, even though they're not flush, they knock her out cold. That's not a doctor/ref stoppage, or standard KO where she can't quite get up in time; her lights are completely turned out for a good 30+ seconds there.

Blogger tuberman April 15, 2017 6:54 AM  

15. Baker
"Either that or you can have a 250-300 pound bruiser named Bertha who drinks to much coffee brandy and goes into berserker mode."

Nope, even heavy and relatively strong women are not that strong compared to any strong or trained male.

My niece was in her early thirties and weighed 298 pounds and was quite strong for a female, and she was bragging about backing down guys in bars. I said to her, "You're going to get hurt, and hurt bad one day."

She literally guffawed, saying, "Yeah!" I weighed 198 pounds and was in my later 40's, so I invited her over, and showed I could push her around like a baby wherever I wanted to push her. Then, I said, "It doesn't take strength like mine, a trained 140 pound guy could kill you fast, without a weapon."

Anonymous Yann April 15, 2017 7:02 AM  

One thing about the tendons stuff: that's was indeed a real technique used in the Roman Legion, and probably he got it from there.

Very likely it made sense within its context, like fighting against somebody protecting himself with that kind of ancient big shields used in falange-like ancient armies (just guessing). The technique didn't last long, which means it was likely aimed to some specific target.

Anonymous Stochastic Persiflage April 15, 2017 7:02 AM  

With this whole "punch a Nazi in the face" meme that's been going around the libtardosphere lately ... I finally had enough of the punchocrats' nonsense. They can never think more than one step ahead.

So I've asked (on several forums) "What happens if the punchee punches back?" Or basically what happens next? Do you punch and run like a wimp (which happened in the case of Spencer), or stick around "like a man" and fight? And what happens if the Nazi (or whoever you take for a Nazi) wins?

I have yet to receive an answer. I suspect they don't even understand the question.

(This goes a bit beyond the male/female thing, but still applicable.)

Blogger tuberman April 15, 2017 7:05 AM  

There are W-A-Y too many women who believe in this GRRL Power stuff, and think itis real.

Blogger Wild Ape April 15, 2017 7:15 AM  

I don't read comics for realistic fight scenes. Seeing Thor slam someone with Mjolnir and having them fly back and through a wall is visually cool but nothing close to realistic. I can't tell you why but chicks with guns are pretty sexy. Personally I think they make great sidekicks for heroes or team mates but not so much as solo characters. When they are solo characters the story drags into a romance comic. Marvel doesn't seem to get that it is the story that makes comics worth reading not their SJW politics. Marvel cannot pull off a female character because it becomes a virtue signaling, message driven, sappy gay or straight romance that even SJW women won't buy it. If there was an audience for femme fiction Marvel would have it locked down right now and most of their magazines sell around 20-30K tops. I think Wonder Woman has more male readers than female and I think that the appeal might be that the character is the girlfriend that guys wish they had who adventures instead of doing girlish things that most female characters do. I don't know, I don't read Wonder Woman. I'm looking forward to CH putting out the comic. It will be refreshing. Yes, if a girl got into a fight with a guy it would be two hits with him hitting her and her hitting the floor but that story wouldn't be much fun.

Anonymous Man of the Atom April 15, 2017 7:16 AM  

tuberman wrote:There are W-A-Y too many women who believe in this GRRL Power stuff, and think it is real.

Indicative of how information and belief travels in the herd mentalities.

I checked out a couple other videos on Rijker. Comments sections described her fighting other men ... and winning. Facts have little effect on the Herd's Narrative if the individuals haven't lived them.

Anonymous Looking Glass April 15, 2017 7:26 AM  

I always find some enduring irony that "sweep the leg" is viewed as disrespectful, when in reality it's one of the more useful things to do to someone that's trying to hurt you. (Mindful that the most likely time you'll be able to is side-stepping them lunging at you.) Knees are a pretty severe weakpoint if you can strike them anywhere but on the knee cap.

I also found Kali training very valuable, as the ability to extend your reach with anything that counts as a stick in extremely valuable. Having a tactical advantage in reach & certain directed striking strength has decisive effect, if you know what you're doing.

Though I guess one side-benefit to everyone thinking Hollywood is somehow correct about real fighting is almost no one seems to realize the devastating power of the knee-strike. The strike-type for when you really want to ruin someone's year.

Blogger szopen April 15, 2017 7:29 AM  

I think that girls believe that grrl power not jsut because of the movies, but also because the last time they had been allowed physical interaction with men would be like kindergarten or schools. Girls mature faster (both physically and psychologically) and as such, small girls actually have a fighting chance against small boys their size. My daughter in the kindergarten once fought against two boys and WON. In my grammar school (like 4th or 5th class, so it's like 11- to 12- y/o) there was once girl, who was larger than ALL boys in our class and she was basically throwing boys around. I must admit that part of that was because some boys literally were freezing in her presence, as they were not teached how to deal with situation when attacked by girls; but there were also few who tried to fight back and lost. Then maturation kicks off, boys quickly grow and gain strength (nowadays even faster than in my ole days) but girls seem not to notice that.

And before you will laugh at me, look here:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/images/databriefs/101-150/db139_fig4.png

and here:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1517-86922005000400001&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Blogger manfred arcane April 15, 2017 7:29 AM  

Wouldn't this qualify as more of that cucky submissiveness? I have a hard time thinking about their mindset, as neither do I know anyone like that in RL nor do I know anything about psychology. But, some of these men apparently NEED women to be their absolute superiors in every possible way, and they take some sort of enjoyment from assuming the position of useless drone bee. And since they project it on entire gender, it obviously goes beyond sexual submissiveness.

Blogger John rockwell April 15, 2017 7:31 AM  

''strong female characters''=Men in Womens suits. Nothing feminine about them except for appearance.

Blogger Zach April 15, 2017 7:39 AM  

Marc MacYoung is writing a "Violence for Writers" series. I don't know if he addresses "GRRL power!", but I know he has pet peeves like "no, getting shot with a handgun does not cause you to fly backwards three feet"

Blogger Mr. Excitement April 15, 2017 7:44 AM  

Strong female character:

President Roslin in Battlestar Galactica.
The woman was slowly dying of cancer during the entire series, and near the end could barely even get out of bed.
But nobody ever doubted she was in charge. She commanded respect and loyalty through her compassion, intelligence, and force of will.

Strong female character:

Ripley in Aliens.
Blue collar gal that was hired to consult the military. Knew nothing about weapons systems and was terrified most of the time.
Defeated one of the greatest movie monsters in cinema history, the Queen Alien, by using what she's good at: A power loader.

Not a strong female character:

Michelle Rodriguez in EVERY SINGLE ROLE. She's made an entire career out of playing the "Buttkickin' Chick" cliche.
It's just ridiculous and cringe inducing.

Blogger tuberman April 15, 2017 7:48 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer April 15, 2017 7:49 AM  

The adrenaline thing doesn't even have to get to fight levels of it to not notice injuries. Just playing a normal limited contact sport is sufficient. My girlfriend is always baffled when I dont know exactly how I got each bruise playing a pickup game of basketball.

Blogger tuberman April 15, 2017 7:52 AM  

If I was to create a fighting female character, I would at least give her a background of National Level Gymnastics training, with learning whole body striking techniques using her core to back the blows. She would have an awareness of the dangers of the Jab to stun her. She would also have down certain techniques used to add strength without adding muscle size (on top of the striking knowledge, and gymnastic abilities).

Of course, there would be solid research on weapon use by her too.

Anonymous DirkH April 15, 2017 7:52 AM  

You gotta check out Scarlet Blade, a MMO where tiny girls traipsing around in high heels swing huge swords at monsters. I think the purpose of the game is that you earn yourself some clothes, because you don't seem to have any of note.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 15, 2017 7:54 AM  

"strong female characters", particularly in the modern context of Princess Kung-Fu

I'm pretty sure this meme was imported from Chinese wuxia fantasy. Too bad it was mangled so bad in translation.

Blogger VD April 15, 2017 7:54 AM  

If I was to create a fighting female character, I would at least give her a background of National Level Gymnastics training, with learning whole body striking technique.s using her core to back the blows. She would have an awareness of the dangers of the Jab to stun her and ways to keep her. She would also have down certain technique.used to add strength without adding muscle size (on top of the striking knowledge, and gymnastic abilities).

You're making the same mistake as everyone else. It's all irrelevant. She'd still get knocked out the first time she took a punch.

Combat is less about what you can do to the enemy than what he can do to you. The most important thing to understand is that women aren't just smaller and weaker, they are SLOWER.

Blogger Salt April 15, 2017 7:55 AM  

The truth of Men v Women fighting is all over YouTube. One woman starts beating on a guy and he one shots her. She doesn't get up.

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 8:01 AM  

I train BJJ, My Thai and Judo. Of the 3 Judo is probably the best bet for women. What is under appreciated is that pound for pound males have 40% to 60% more muscle mass, so a 160lb fit woman would have about the same muscle mass as a 100lb fit adult male. Start talking about a 200+ lb fit, trained male and most women have no concept of how much force they can generate, or how much punishment they can absorb.

My young children, including my daughters train judo and BBJ. One of the take aways I stress for them is assessing their opponent, understand the threat a male can present. They train with both boys and girls.

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 8:04 AM  

Salt,

The videos of girls cold-cocking guys then getting KO'd with a single shot are hillarious!

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 8:12 AM  

@15 "La Fille Furie should look like Marine Le Pen"

hmmmm. Wouldn't possibly handing over a rhetorical 'sword' against Le Pen be less than optimal? Her opponents -- assuming the comic is a hit/became known in France -- could use it to attack her. Then, unless (by happenstance and true good luck) her supporters were able to 're-purpose it' as a 'flag' for her side (like the cops using "pigs"), she/her side/her mission could be harmed by "comic character marginalization"?

I dunno: is it 'dangerous' to provide a possible rhetorical object to one's enemies?

Blogger James Dixon April 15, 2017 8:17 AM  

> I train BJJ, My Thai and Judo. Of the 3 Judo is probably the best bet for women.

Of those three, yes. I'd probably argue for Aikido.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 15, 2017 8:21 AM  

I've wondered before if this is partly the result of small families. With 1-2 kids per family, how many girls never got made to cry Uncle by a younger brother? How many of the men who think Ronda Rousey could have beaten a male fighter never fought with a girl at all growing up? Siblings fight far more than would ever be allowed in school or most other places, and little brothers aren't known for pulling punches with their mean older sisters.

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 8:23 AM  

Another big factor is training. Facing someone with good full contact training, vs someone who hasn't is a big difference.

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 8:26 AM  

The Bar fight from "Jack Reacher".

Getting punched in the face during a fight is weirdly Binary... You either get stars and need to back up a step to recover, or you don't even notice it.

But yes, princess kung fu is laughable. Even among Buffy types with super strength. Mass matters.

The only time a hit from a girl has ever mattered was when she looked like Mama June.

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 8:29 AM  

@21 "There are W-A-Y too many women who believe in this GRRL Power stuff, and think it is real."

Which is a HUGE problem if you care about a woman or girl, who thinks SHE is Buffy! Because they've been shown so many girls on TV punching a guy and knocking him down or holding their own in a clinch, they really and truly BELIEVE they have a chance!

I used to try to disassemble the "how to protect yourself" CRAP that girls were taught, hoping to wake them up!

1. Kick him in the shins reeeeally hard!
vs. Dja ever walk through the living room in the dark and slam your shin into the coffee table reeeally hard? Did that disable you? Were you unable to keep going to the kitchen? Or did you swear and continue moving?

2. Hold your car keys between your fingers and try to cut the guy's face!
vs. Dja ever cut down brambles and get scored really badly by the thorns? Did you keep going?

3. Stomp on his instep as HARD as you can!
vs. Dja ever drop something really heavy on your foot? Even with a BROKEN foot, did it disable you?

(From "Blazing Saddles":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK7ZvZNAiKY )

I even counseled a (poor misled) girl who often home through a bad NYC neighborhood at 2 a.m. from work: for HER protection, she would 'have her phone out, and have dialed 9-1, and have her finger near the the 1 key.'

(Talk about "talisman safety"! Been reading Kane and Wilder's book "The Big Bloody Book of Violence." Quite good.)

Any y'all talked to your women about the reality of violence and the mismatch they've been taught between what they CAN do and what they can't?!

Blogger KSC April 15, 2017 8:32 AM  

Jim Butcher, though I like him, is pretty terrible about this. Murphy is a wildly unrealistic character in pretty much every way.

Anyone have recommendations on books with the most realistic depictions of combat? (I have no training in that area whatsoever, and so am unequipped to judge.)

Anonymous steve April 15, 2017 8:36 AM  

any one who (man or woman) depends on thier martial arts training as a first line is an idiot and never been in a real combat situation ... i know quite a few combat vets and the first thing they do it pack the ccw...

for all you martial artists (and i am a black slash and teach) remember the Boxer Revoltution. By the time you get to hand to hand, you have better exhausted all other options, including running away fast. in fact, thats one if the benefits of training, being in good shape so you can outrun your enemy.

Blogger szopen April 15, 2017 8:36 AM  

Cail Corishev wrote:I've wondered before if this is partly the result of small families. With 1-2 kids per family, how many girls never got made to cry Uncle by a younger brother? How many of the men who think Ronda Rousey could have beaten a male fighter never fought with a girl at all growing up? Siblings fight far more than would ever be allowed in school or most other places, and little brothers aren't known for pulling punches with their mean older sisters.
As I wrote, this actually will have the opposite effect, as at the younger age (when siblings actually fight) the mean strength difference between boys and girls is much smaller easily up to 9 or even 12.

Anonymous Godfrey April 15, 2017 8:36 AM  

Did this all start with the martial arts movie craze of the 1970s?

Blogger tuberman April 15, 2017 8:40 AM  

35.
"You're making the same mistake as everyone else. It's all irrelevant. She'd still get knocked out the first time she took a punch." Totally true.

Yeah, GRRL Power is all comic book stuff anyway, so you're correct.But at least one could fake more realism. We have now, untrained women with super abilities, just because...Girls are so cool...latest Star Wars garbage. That's today's absurdity.

I talked about that absurdity to a friend, and he said that it was "Just Hollywood," and I answered, "Lacks internal consistency with earlier Star Wars stories, as all the male Jeds had go through long training, and she just had those abilities without training." He did not care, and his wife said, "I like her character." Ha! Wow Just Wow!

On the comic book level, the female could, well, distort time...super power.

No realistic female fighting women, does not work... agreed.

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 8:40 AM  

@27 "strong female characters=Men in Womens suits. Nothing feminine about them except for appearance."

But consider the audience: boys and young men (and adult men, for that matter). What are two of their most-fav things: girls and violence. So, female comic characters are, indeed, men in women-suits. Not reality, but certainly eye candy!

It's like alllllll the babes-with-guns videos. NO ONE expects to find women in bikinis firing automatic weapons on a battle field, -- but man-oh-man (literally) -- men LOVE to see babes with guns! (And not "women" with guns; but very shapely, pretty, long-haired women: babes!)

Eye candy is NOT supposed to be 'real' -- it's supposed to be exciting and pleasing to the eye (and gonads).

(Thus, one of the flaws in 'modern' comics (I'm guessing; I don't read them) may be the SJWs are trying to make them seem "realistic" (in their twisted grrrrl pwr version of "real")(which ain't!), rather than giving us a wink-and-a-nod at the boys and men who want to see beautiful babes mixed (successfully) with violence.)

Whatcha think? Am I close?

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 8:42 AM  

If I were making a butt-kicking female chick, the first thing I'd give her is a 7 foot tall musclebound sidekick so that she can slap the bad guy and he can proceed with the pounding.

Or a sniper rifle. Some girls are bloody good shots at extreme range. Not many, but some. Not shurikens or throwing knives, though.

Maybe a drone? Naww... females make crappy drone pilots.

An AI? Naww, an AI back seat driving and acting 'female' would be enormously useless.

A tent full of hookers? Perfect.

Anonymous Godfrey April 15, 2017 8:43 AM  

One thing I always laugh at is how a movie character will go through a massive fight in which he receives multiple blows to the head, face, and body and then in the next scene has barely a scratch on him.

Blogger szopen April 15, 2017 8:44 AM  

Avalanche wrote:@27
But consider the audience: boys and young men (and adult men, for that matter). What are two of their most-fav things: girls and violence.

Cheap psychology time: boys want pretty looking, tough girls because they are still attached to their mothers and they are seeking mummies. Only when boys grow up, they start to look for real women. :D

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 8:45 AM  

@28 "Marc MacYoung is writing a "Violence for Writers" series."

Rory Miller has also written an excellent book for writers: "Violence: A Writer's Guide" -- excellent. As I'm sure Marc's book will also be. (Those two have written a suite of excellent books for one trying to learn to both recognize and articulate (in court: Andrew Branca's strong suggestion. His excellent and useful book is: "The Law of Self Defense.") the precursors to violence, to help win what Mas Ayoob (among others) calls "the second fight" -- the one in court.

Blogger DeploraBard April 15, 2017 8:47 AM  

I have a female medic that went to a line unit in the infantry. She is fit and pretty tough for a girl. 6 months later, bilateral anterior hip labral tears with no mechanism of injury and she can run, ruck, or walk without limping. Biology and anatomy don't matter though and our army is stronger for this.

Blogger DeploraBard April 15, 2017 8:47 AM  

Can't run, not can

Blogger DeploraBard April 15, 2017 8:51 AM  

3 cases of syphilis in homosexual soldiers recently and that is just one brigade. Only one other case in prior 8 years. Diversity truly is our strength.

Blogger robinintn April 15, 2017 8:52 AM  

VD: "Combat is less about what you can do to the enemy than what he can do to you."
This is all that matters for women. As one, I am 100% clear that I could never, under any circumstance, take a real punch or kick from a man, and so I would never invite one. I taught the same to my now grown daughter, who has managed to avoid living in the alternate universe of grrrl power (As an aside, I think this is one reason men find her attractive.). Of course, we do carry equalizers.

Blogger Mr. Excitement April 15, 2017 8:54 AM  

@54

"I have a female medic that went to a line unit in the infantry. She is fit and pretty tough for a girl. 6 months later, bilateral anterior hip labral tears with no mechanism of injury and she can run, ruck, or walk without limping."


I did a 6 month TDY at the PEB (medical board) a few years ago.

Army women are constantly having these type of hip injuries, even the ones not in combat units.

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 8:56 AM  

@29 "But nobody ever doubted she was in charge. She commanded respect and loyalty through her compassion, intelligence, and force of will."

Decades ago, in Newport RI's Navy Officer Candidate School, we girls were singled out for a lecture on "command presence" (we were told). We rambled into the classroom, yakking and finding seats at the desks -- NO ONE particularly noticed the uniformed woman sitting in the back corner. Once we were all in and waiting "for the teacher" -- she stood up and we all leaped to our feet: "Admiral on DECK!" -- because SHE was the admiral! (Annoyingly -- she then walked out, and gave us NO idea of what or how to learn command presence.)

But to provide a counterbalance: I later came to believe (and still do) was just one more proof that women should NOT be in the military... The 'rules' of rank is; a junior officer holds the door for a senior officer. (RHIP) The problem came in application: (this was in the 1970s -- all military courtesy may have been stamped out by now?) many male officers (esp. the older, more senior ones) would automatically try to "hold the door for a woman" -- even junior ranked. When some of us, trying to figure out the protocol we should follow, asked about this, we were told: "do the best you can." (Essentially, try to GUESS what any particular senior male officer had in mind as you both approached a door.)

Oh thanks. Real helpful. Total catch-22.

(Just one one (silly little) reason why women shouldn't be in the military.)

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 8:59 AM  

Robinton, While I support female carry, I can tell you from a LOT of experience that if a man is close enough to grapple with you, the piece does NOT MATTER. if anything, it distracts from your only viable defensive strategy... Run like hell screaming your bloody head off. And it mostly just provides him with a brand new piece.

His reactions are faster. IF you can shoot through the bag or purse it is in (forget belt draw at close range) you might be able to get a shot or two off (forget aiming) and frighten him into running.

In general though, the range at which a woman can aim and fire at an attacker without being blocked bracketed by the range at which the weapon is likely to hit an assailant is so small for women that carry should be the absolute LAST option for responding to criminal assault.

The first and best option is always having big strong scary men around to protect you.

Blogger Skyler the Weird April 15, 2017 9:02 AM  

The Israelis found women are injured more often than men in Military training yet they still are lowering the standards to keep them in the Army.

I had read somewhere else that the Army had women in combat out of necessity in 1948 and that those units had the highest casualty rates due to the women being weaker and also due to White Knighting. The men would fly into danger to save wounded female soldiers.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/198853#.VbufUvlVikp


After at least 15 years of hyping the idea of women in combat units, the IDF is admitting that women suffer injuries at a much higher rate than men during combat training – despite the fact that training requirements for women in combat are considerably less demanding than for men.

According to a report in the IDF’s Bamahane magazine, a large scale study was conducted among female combat soldiers in the Karakal infantry unit, the Artillery Corps and the Field Intelligence Corps, between the years 2012-13.

The study indicated that a full 46% of the female soldiers suffered injuries during their initial period of training, as opposed to 25% among the men. One third of the women in the study were injured more than once.
The injuries included torn ligaments, sprains, knee pain, back pain and stress fractures. The latter were much more common in women, afflicting only 2% of men but 8% of the women. “Most stress fractures appear in weeks 4-6 of the training period, and mainly in the field and warfare weeks,” an officer explained to Bamachane.

Anonymous Lawyer Guy April 15, 2017 9:04 AM  

I was military police doing LE back when we had 3 cell maglights. Tasers were just in movies back then.

Been in a number of fights back then, a few one on one and most group of MPs on one.

Punching someone drunk and/or very scared and/or very angry won't stop them. Trying to hit them hard enough will tend to hurt your wrist even if you make a proper fist.

A maglight hard hit to the sides of the thighs or upper arms can make them weaker and sometimes get them to stop. A hit to the head can stop the fight, it did the two times I saw it done, but carries a large risk of killing them and one woke up in the German hospital.

Women can hit hard enough with the maglight to be effective. Only about half have the will to do it right even with training. Women are only about half as effective as men in wrestling to get someone cuffed and the leg restraints on, even if they have the right mindset and training.

We learned the pressure points but they are so hard to do they are mostly worthless.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 15, 2017 9:06 AM  

Yeah, GRRL Power is all comic book stuff anyway, so you're correct.But at least one could fake more realism.

I'd say go the other way, with less realism. If you really think the world needs one more Combat Chick, make her officially a super-being, like Leeloo in The Fifth Element. Go over-the-top unrealistic. And make her feminine and vulnerable in other ways, to set her apart from all the strong-and-independent Action Bitches. In the end, Leeloo needs a man to hold her up.

Or just stop beating that dead horse trope. Write "strong female characters" who don't fight at all, but are strong in other, feminine ways. That would be novel.

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 9:07 AM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20SrfEtLDZY

The general reaction to females 'in combat'

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 9:09 AM  

@35 "Combat is less about what you can do to the enemy than what he can do to you. The most important thing to understand is that women aren't just smaller and weaker, they are SLOWER."

AND women's adrenaline doesn't kick in like a male's does. A guy, faced with a threat, in pretty much instantly adrenaline-charged: feels pain way less, his blood is shunted from the body surface, he gets that adrenaline-fueled extra strength. (Their adrenaline also wears off faster than a woman's.)

Women's adrenaline takes as long as 15-20 MINUTES to hit peak... so she's out cold by the time adrenaline would have let her 'shake off' a blow or run like hell. And she would STILL not be able to hit as hard as a(n adrenalized) man (or, probably, ANY man!). Sheer muscle dynamics.

AND girls don't (usually) have the rough-and-tumble upbringing boys do. The courts in the U.S. have even had to expand their "reasonable man" standard -- because the "reasonable woman" does NOT have the same standard at all! Almost no women have the experience of being punched or hit or even run over hard by a base runner. They haven't fallen 30' out of a tree ({wince} I have) or off their bike trying to jump it over a gully.

(The intentional erasure of this knowledge from modern women is part-and-parcel of the destruction of our society! (Most) Women today do not realize or recognize that they NEED a strong man for protection. And that means they NEED to learn how to be the kind of woman such a man wants! No *man* wants to marry an enemy and bring her into his house!)

Blogger robinintn April 15, 2017 9:11 AM  

Dire Badger: That's good info, and I'm glad you posted it in case any females reading here are laboring under those type delusions. I probably shouldn't have used the word "equalizer", knowing that's not really what they do for women. My 80-year-old mom calls it her protection. She has a wide selection. We all have a lot of training, practice, and experience with firearms, and we know what they can and can't do.

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 9:12 AM  

I give my combat arts instructor huge credit. Once a woman has been training for a while, he has her go 100% against one of the 200lb guys in the gym (guy just matches her strength). It's to educate, not to prove anything, and most of the women come away appreciating the what they just learned.

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 9:20 AM  

@60 "if a man is close enough to grapple with you, the piece does NOT MATTER."

Thus you should make sure your woman is well-educated in the precursors to violence. The IDEAL (says Sun Tzu) is to NOT fight the battle at all. Not suggesting women should walk around with squinty eyes and their hand on their piece... but they SHOULD have practiced their 'intuition' and be familiar enough with said precursors to actually get 'cued' when one or more shows up!

Rory Miller, whom I mentioned above, suggests going to the Mall, and sitting there for an hour watching people, and identifying those who are carrying, but not yet practiced enough to actually conceal a concealed weapon. Useful drill. (Well, in Georgia, probably NOT in California!)

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 9:28 AM  

Well, when it comes to housebreaking and other situations in which women may be alone, I totally support female carry. If someone is breaking into her house where she is by herself, she will usually have the time to realize she is being threatened, and unload into an intruder while they are breaking in, or from a prepared position, without needing to make the split-second judgement about whether someone is a threat.

Because combat 'thinking' is another huge problem women have.

But it has been shown repeatedly that female police officers have a vastly increased rate of firearm discharge than male officers, because they HAVE to determine a threat at a much lower level than male officers... thus making them vastly more dangerous on the street. Not to mention female officers are disarmed, killed by suspects, and have a lower capture rate than male officers at an incredibly disproportionate rate compared to male officers.

In a very real way, 'staffing' your cop shop with chicks is more of a net negative to a police department's effectiveness compared to being understaffed. It's better to be shorthanded than to have female officers.

The same is true in emergency response teams, firefighting, rigging (Oil drilling and mining) park control, lumbering, construction, air traffic control, and virtually every single career that requires quick reactions or the ability to 'think combat' (make decisions quickly and under stress). Even careers such as day trading, Emergency medical, and public transportation tend to suffer with females at the helm.

Add to that their tendency to social justice converge the few institutions that they ARE suited for, The wisdom in refusing to allow them to work outside the home except in certain rare circumstances becomes quite clear.

Western men should certainly consider placing the same sort of restriction on female employment that we placed on child labor. It would drive up wages, increase general skill levels and capability, and likely make women considerably happier.

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 9:34 AM  

I am not suggesting going full Muslim, there are exceptional women, but they should be treated as what they are... exceptions, not the rule.

Blogger szopen April 15, 2017 9:35 AM  

Off Topic: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/shelley-garland/could-it-be-time-to-deny-white-men-the-franchise_a_22036640/

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 9:39 AM  

Avalanche,

I like the book the gift of fear . I got it for my wife.

Anonymous kfg April 15, 2017 9:40 AM  

"Just playing a normal limited contact sport is sufficient."

I was walking around after a bicycle race and started wondering why one of my socks felt "squishy." Turns out it was soaked with blood that had run down from my knee. A bolt on a cable clip was a bit too long and had gouged a furrow out of my knee.

It doesn't require any contact at all, just the focus and pump of competition will make you insensitive to injury.

I've been scraped off the deck with a spatula a few times, including being hit by a car, while thinking, "Oh man, that's going to hurt . . . later."

Anonymous Stickwick April 15, 2017 9:44 AM  

Growing up with a wrestler / football player "little" brother who is 5" taller and 70 lbs. heavier than you will tend to dispel any myths about women's abilities vs men's.

But I was still a little surprised at how much stronger and faster my husband is than me, even though he's not much bigger than I am. We had a friendly wrestling match one time shortly after getting married, when I challenged him to try to pin me down without causing any real damage. It took him less than a second. I had him try a few more times, because I felt like I could "prepare" for the next one. There was no way. He also put me in various holds, and I couldn't believe the strength difference. Even though I'm tall and a five-time record-holding power lifter, my superior size and strength relative to other women was basically meaningless when matched up against an average-sized man. My attempts to pin him down were utter hilarity.

It would be far better to see female characters utilizing guile and weapons to defeat male characters than this retarded notion that they are in any way capable of physically engaging them.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 15, 2017 9:54 AM  

It doesn't require any contact at all, just the focus and pump of competition will make you insensitive to injury.

Yep, or focus on anything, really. Yesterday I was doing some work on my car, cussing as I contorted to reach bolts up under the dash, and noticed at one point that I was bleeding from a cut on my wrist. No idea when it happened. That kind of thing is normal for men and boys. It happens regularly when we're doing physical work or playing sports. If we stopped to apply first-aid every time a woman would, we'd never get anything done.

Anonymous BBGKB April 15, 2017 9:55 AM  

Goldberg is a computer nerd. She used to work for the NSA, but went over to the Secret Service to audit security

In reality she seeths eating ice cream at home with cats because a coal miners daughter is prettier and smarter than Jewish prince-esses

and even to engage in the proverbial handbags at dawn

Ballad of the Queen Beret "Fighting men in heels high, In their hair Purple Dye...Trained in combat purse to hand"

faster, stronger men by flying out of their reach, wrapping her tail around their neck, and strangling them.

Fortunately the iron neck exercises are the easiest body part to buff for resilience.

You have never heard anyone talk so much shit in your life as this chick did.

In the Army ,when I got the Expert Medical Field Badge, a girl that was trying to get it said she could take risks in the woods because we were all medics. I told her I was a better medic with an aid bag & splints than with sticks & I knew I was a better medic than her.

"Either that or you can have a 250-300 pound bruiser named Bertha who drinks to much coffee brandy and goes into berserker mode."

Trigglypuff looked over 300lbs

I train BJJ, My Thai and Jewdough, boy what a time to be banned from making home depot dumpster jokes.

for HER protection, she would 'have her phone out, and have dialed 9-1, and have her finger near the the 1 key.'

DieVerseCity isn't just bridge collapses http://abc13.com/news/911-dispatcher-charged-with-over-800-hung-up-calls/1558866/

Related: Watched the new MacGyver:
Original had improve genius, new has him needing the help of a niggenius inventer, 1/2 niggerette hacker who can beat up men, & Stupid YT man with gun. What is it with jews casting jewy strong midgetettes in charge? Doubt a jewgetette would be walking towards gunfire, the recoil on a real gun would probably be too much for a male midget, I 1/2 expected the jewgetette to jump up in the air and kick 6' tall men in the face.

I give the Shoah NigGyver 0/5✡

And Strong woman takes credit for the work of a biomechanics lab
https://www.yahoo.com/news/survived-boston-marathon-bombing-ill-back-year-even-walk-090003640.html

Anonymous URL IRL April 15, 2017 9:58 AM  

Watched a few episodes of Marvel's "Fist" this week. They have a maybe 110 lb girl defeat a fighting man probably twice her weight in a no holds barred ring fight. The Fist has power from training in some oblique dimension. There is no explanation for why this girl is so prodigiously bad ass.

Anonymous DaveInjustice April 15, 2017 9:59 AM  

wait, ball kicking isn't 100 percent effective? you mean my AmeriDoTe instructor was wrong?

Anonymous URL IRL April 15, 2017 10:03 AM  

Actually there is an unspoken explanation: attitude. She has a kick ass, don't !@%^ with me attitude.

Anonymous BBGKB April 15, 2017 10:06 AM  

3 cases of syphilis in homosexual soldiers recently and that is just one brigade. Only one other case in prior 8 years

In my tank battalion there were 2 barracks hoes that most of the str8 guys slept with, when ever they got a disease it would spread. I was actually told not to sleep with them by name my first day on the job.

Blogger Masha K. April 15, 2017 10:12 AM  

@45 Give Butcher credit for one thing. In Aeronaut's Windlass, a 6ft tall young woman, very physically fit, able to lift a grown man off the ground, still comes up entirely ineffective against a warrior man when the time comes.

FWIW, in Andrew Klavan's YA series Mind War there's a plotline with a teen girl going against a couple of thugs who came to kidnap her. She actually knows she can't effectively fight because her (female) gym teacher at some point explained the diff between the movies and real life. So she grabs a metal weight off the rack, hits the nearest guy in the face, smashing his nose, and runs like hell. The guy stays on his feet. She still gets kidnapped. I thought it was not only realistic, but something useful for young girls to read. This idea that a woman can punch out a man can get very dangerous in real life.

Blogger Tom Kratman April 15, 2017 10:16 AM  

You may note that _I_ do not make this error.

Anonymous Iron Spartan April 15, 2017 10:35 AM  

What ever happened to the axiom "Never trust a man who hasn't been punched in the face."

Blogger KSC April 15, 2017 10:35 AM  

@81
I do remember that. And Butcher gets a little bit of a pass because most of his female characters have some kind of superpower. I'm willing to suspend a lot of disbelief if "magic" is the explanation. Still, Karrin Murphy (probably the most featured character in the Dresden Files) comes across as pretty silly a lot of the time. (Speaking, of course, as someone with only a theoretical knowledge of violence; I don't want to attempt to speak authoritatively on the subject.)

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 10:43 AM  

It seems to have been forgotten that men and women are two halves of a greater whole. Each have their strengths and when they play to those the whole is greater for it.

Blogger Unknown April 15, 2017 10:44 AM  

I've seen a few times where the woman bruiser was done right.

Done right, she is a freak. A man with tits is the nicest thing they would be called. Ridiculed, reviled, ugly. Objects of scorn.

And when such a creature is written, if its a series, the author seems to feel the need to move her from the realm of the believable to fantasy. Her looks soften, strangers stop recoiling, and suddenly she on par with the great beauties of that world.

Blogger Ken Prescott April 15, 2017 10:46 AM  

My WIP features a female assassin. She goes for long range shoots (>400 yards) after identifying the one place her target is guaranteed to be), buzz-and-bangs with a suppressed pistol, or get her target to voluntarily ingest something reliably lethal.

Fight hand-to-hand? Are you crazy? That's how you break a nail!

Anonymous Grayman April 15, 2017 10:49 AM  

From discussions I've had with women who engage in Combat Sports the mental response to physical violence is simply different as well. Most of the people I train with all the grey that when you absorb that first strike you get an intense rush and excitement. None of the women I have trained with that I have asked about this describe a similar response

Anonymous Iron Spartan April 15, 2017 10:52 AM  

I have seen the girl bruiser done right a couple of times.

In those, she is a freak of nature. A man with tits is the best she could called. An object of ridicule and scorn, feared, with deep psychological problems.

When a author does seem to write such a creature, they seem to have the need to morph her into something else. Given time her looks soften, strangers no longer recoil at her approach, some alpha becomes a love interest, and suddenly she is one of the great beauties of the world. At that point the story will pretty much become message fic.

Blogger Amos Bellomy April 15, 2017 10:59 AM  

As someone who played soccer younger, I can confirm what you said about getting hit between the legs. If you're in the zone at the time you won't even slow down.

Blogger Nick S April 15, 2017 11:00 AM  

Women have the superpower of being able to instantly flip from compassionate and nurturing to ruthless deception and manipulation with no compunction whatsoever. It's a scary thing to behold.

Blogger GracieLou April 15, 2017 11:00 AM  

"...super powers imbued by her black belt. She was 5'5 and weighed 120 lbs."

For many years I was exactly this size, in great shape, running a minimum of 20km a week and working a professionally designed weight routine. At that time my greatest physical challenge each and every week, hands down was--pushing a shopping cart through Kroger. It was so exhausting, by the time I wrested the 25lb block of FreshStep onto the lower rack I'd get blackout vision (prob low blood pressure from running too damn much).

Seriously, a woman that size has absolutely no ballast, no upper body strength and usually tiny little pixie hands. Her only viable form of self-defense would be crying. What kind of insane delusion would make such a woman think she could fight a full-size, combat trained soldier? Diabolical disorientation at its finest.

OpenID ar10308 April 15, 2017 11:12 AM  

This week's Louder With Crowder Show (Steven Crowder) had a good, solid segment on the stupidity of female badass characters. Charlize Theron's new movie Atomic Blonde inspired his rant and him to do actual demonstrations on how stupid the techniques and idea that a female could possibly beat these men up.

The segment is here (link to start at 21min 11seconds): https://youtu.be/hE8rGdr26Rw?t=21m11s

What's most amusing about this is he uses his assistant Not-Gay Jared, who is a fairly small guy and doesn't work out at all. Despite that, Not-Gay Jared handily beat avid CrossFitter Courtney Kirchoff, another of Crowder's show personalities, in an Arm-Wrestling Match. Fortunately, Courtney is Red Pilled on how she compares to men with regards to strength and physicality, but it's still amusing to see her dealing with the realization that she's weaker than a guy who's 5'9" and 150lbs guy wearing skinny jeans and doesn't work out at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbBIK8CzCYo

The most recent movie I can think of that handled this reality appropriately was John Wick 2, where there is a female character that he is foreshadowed to fight through most of the movie, but when he finally fights her, he dispatches her effortlessly and with little drama.

Blogger Amos Bellomy April 15, 2017 11:12 AM  

I do need to ask: Any of you read "Daughter of Danger"by John Wright? I'm curious what you thought of the fighting scenes.

Blogger J Van Stry April 15, 2017 11:20 AM  

Back when I was studying martial arts, one of my instructors was a former member of the Navy's boxing team (he was the only white guy on it). He was the one who taught me how to do a spinning heel to the head and actually get away with it in a fight. Did that once in a competition and even the ref said 'nice move' in the middle of the round.

In an all out fight, the primary targets are the eye's and the throat if you really want to stop someone. Targets like knees and ankles are easy to hit, but they're harder to damage, because of the way our bodies work.

And if you're fighting with knives, (like in escrima, which I've studied some as well), it's totally possible for both of you to die, if you don't watch your defense. Or for you both to end up crippled for life.

I'm a big guy at 6'1" and I've actually broken bones in full contact sparing matches against guys with more advanced belts than the one I had at the time, because I could hit better than they could block, because I practiced what I knew more than they did.

But the reality of most street fights is that they're over fairly quickly, if one person knows how to fight and the other really doesn't. Because they're not expecting, or trained for, being hit and the pain that comes with it.

I studied (and even taught) Kenpo btw.

Blogger Trimegistus April 15, 2017 11:22 AM  

If only there was some kind of small, reliable, easily portable device which could allow a woman to overcome a man without getting into hand-to-hand combat. It would have to use stored energy to propel a small but dense object at high speeds. Anyone know of some device like that?

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 15, 2017 11:25 AM  

I think you can write women realistically wiyhout ever punching one in the face. All you have to do is have held a handful or more of them to know.

And how can you not tell how slow they are these days? Real life should suffice, or about ten seconds of women's boxing or mma.

In a nice but maleducating dojo, I was paired against two children to learn "control." Those boys didn't mind semi-hard punches though and as soon as I doubled one kid over, the sensei moved me to a female brown belt.

She was much slower than the children and crumpled on first contact, which I was genuinely trying to control.

Finally the teacher just put me with a big giant guy who could take more hits.

I never came close to learning control and was not with that dojo for very long.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 15, 2017 11:32 AM  

Almost all woman on man combat comes down to the "Elite Swordsman vs. Exhausted Indy" situation. Bang.

Blogger Super Method April 15, 2017 11:40 AM  

I remember well a soccer game when I was younger in which I took a high speed ball directly to the nuts while airborne. I remember being convinced that I would collapse to the ground in pain when a landed, but much to my astonishment, my legs held firm. I proceeded to finish the play and score a goal, (which felt great because I knew the other team thought we would be a cake walk. I was feeling pretty pleased with myself.)

After the play I returned to centerfield to retake my position. Only then did the pain suddenly creep in and I finally did need to step off the field for a while! The delay was pretty surreal at the time.

Blogger michaeloh59 April 15, 2017 11:42 AM  

#16
I find it easiest to maintain 'willing suspension of disbelief' by simply pretending these male characters were cast with actors rather than actresses. And it is no longer just the absurd Femininja characters, increasingly all leadership role characters are cast with actresses; The Walking Dead, The Colony, The Expanse, The 100 (perhaps the worst offender, casting hottie babes as warlords and leaders). I have simply assumed that one of the drivers of this dumbed down TV fiction writing is that the war on HBD has rendered the PC writers too ignorant to write interesting and realistic female characters. Think socially maladjusted feminized sissy nerds all grown up and writing for a sci-fi show. They have no experience with the way real women have exercised power even in very patriarchal societies; I.e. through arranging marriages, intelligence collection and selective dissemination (unfairly derided as mere gossip), and last but not least-sex. One positive example of an interesting, realistically written powerful female character is Viondra Denninger from 'Ascension', she parleys her own sexual appeal-and more importantly that of the younger hotties she has assembled as her brothel- to earn and trade favors in the democratic power structure. She is beautiful, sexy, manipulative, understands what men (and women) want- and is soooo much more interesting than any female character on The 100; who, should they want something from a man, would just beat it out of him. Yawn. And notice Gentlemen, that as the formerly female characters now increasingly become masculine characters merely played by actresses, those actresses often times must be sexy little vixens to be at all interesting- who, for example would even bother to watch The 100s silly butt kicking babes were it not for the cleavage? Cleavage. The saving grace of feminized Television.

Anonymous BBGKB April 15, 2017 11:47 AM  

What ever happened to the axiom "Never trust a man who hasn't been punched in the face."

I think lesbian couples have co-opted it http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/04/2-studies-prove-domestic-violence-lgbt-issue

Blogger Aeroschmidt April 15, 2017 11:50 AM  

A strong woman I punch multiple times in the nose almost KO wanted to keep going. A weak woman punches me in the face, starts crying and blames me for her pain. There's a big range, but slower and weaker overall.

Anonymous NateM April 15, 2017 11:50 AM  

@92

"The most recent movie I can think of that handled this reality appropriately was John Wick 2, where there is a female character that he is foreshadowed to fight through most of the movie, but when he finally fights her, he dispatches her effortlessly and with little drama."

I found myself kinda groaning at that, but actually I ended up kinda liking that character. They didn't overdo it too much with the female badass trope and she was actually Interesting.

Blogger The Other Robot April 15, 2017 11:52 AM  

UKIP now has a strong female leader who wants SJW convergence for the party:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/08/ukip-leadership-hopeful-duffy-members-must-re-educated-towards-progressive-lgbt-politics/

Blogger frigger611 April 15, 2017 12:04 PM  

I tried to watch this recommended SciFi show (Amazon or Netflix) called OASIS. The British television and movie arts are the absolute worst. I thought Hollywood was bad...

Of course dystopian future, starts off in London 2032 (interesting way to start, as Vox has said 2033 for the "collapse," so I was mildly interested)

No reason given for the societal collapse, but the cast seems like 25% white and 75% other. Starvation and bread lines in the streets. Cracked plaster and graffiti everywhere, natch.

The Great White Hope (a priest) has to get on a ship and go off planet to Oasis, cuz someone declares they really need a man of God for some reason.

Of course all scientists and rocket techs are non-white. They finally arrive at Oasis and white woman lieutenant, in charge of new recruits, says the new priest ain't on the list, why is he here? Then runs and tells the REAL leader, commander of Oasis. Who is Pakistani.

This is like 20 minutes into the show. I turned it off before they could get to the chick ninjas pummeling the dudes.

Every damn show is like this. If I had the talent I would write a very boring short story about a very vanilla space utopian future where everything is just about perfect and all the females are happy, attractive, and love and trust their husbands. Biggest conflict: red or white wine with dinner.

Anonymous Jill April 15, 2017 12:11 PM  

I learned everything I know from Rocky, and everything else from being bullied.

Blogger wreckage April 15, 2017 12:13 PM  

@95, I think such a device would be so terrifying in its implications that an entire generation of pop culture would be devoted to convincing people it wasn't needed.

Blogger DJ | AMDG April 15, 2017 12:15 PM  

Horizon Zero Dawn is some of the most fun in a game I've had in a while and on the PS4Pro it's certainly the most beautiful. However, the fact that the main character is a small young grrrl is completely ridiculous considering how much butt she kicks. I'm further irritated by the complete lack of true racial dynamics among tribal people. It's visual preaching of the worst sort. The good tribe is a rainbow of colors and the cultists all wear the same white mask, but whatever...

Blogger James Higham April 15, 2017 12:20 PM  

Vox - from one of the staff at our site:

The links are mainly focused on Sci-fi/Fantasy/Comic Book related shows and characters, but it’s interesting to see the wildly divergent mindsets of the ‘Hollywood’ group conceptualising and producing the shows and those of the people who comprise the TV show audience.

e.g. He mentions Agent Carter, a minor supporting character in one Marvel Series, who was suddenly propelled into a main character of a tv series; with huge fanfare and publicity but no ‘hooks’ or superpowers or talents or anything to distinguish her from any other 1940s woman.

Like many such, it was released by ABC, a national network, to positive critical response, straight to a full series, with no pilot, and extended to a second series. Then cancelled

http://www.vulture.com/2015/01/agent-carter-hayley-atwell.html

Audience numbers by season and episode (millions):

S01 – 6.91 6.91 (back to back) 5.1 4.63 4.2 4.25 4.15 4.02
S02 – 3.18 3.18 (back to back) 2.9 2.77 2.66 2.39 2.39 2.5 2.5 2.35

I think we may assume the public did not agree with the critics?

Unrelated, but similarly, a strange show appeared called ‘Angie Tribeca, on Turner Broadcast Systems. Also with fanfare and publicity, also renewed for a second season by about episode 2, and ultimately for a 3rd season. Also to huge positive critical reception. This one however, is a supposed ‘comedy’ police show. I think the term ‘self indulgent’ might be a better description.

Audience numbers by season and episode (millions) –

S01 – 1.17 1.07 0.940 0.902 0.733 0.628 0.611 0.515 0.492
S02 – 0.66 0.574 0.613 0.611 0.569 0.601 0.595 0.444 0.542 0.481
S03 – 0.645

To which one can simply ask, WHY?

Anonymous Hesiod April 15, 2017 12:21 PM  

Strong women are cool as long as they dress in mail bikinis like Red Sonja.

Blogger pyrrhus April 15, 2017 12:25 PM  

I've always wondered why writers take on subjects of which they are wholly ignorant. Inevitably, it leads to hilarity...The most common examples that I have seen are fighting, firearms, and chess...

Blogger Jonathan Wales April 15, 2017 12:31 PM  

There is a reason combat sports like boxing have weight divisions, and men and women compete separately.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab April 15, 2017 12:34 PM  

I had the exact same conversation about bleeding in the ring as VD and my eye sight was blurring out and I still wasn't aware of any of that because I could see the guy's outline. That's all that mattered to me.

When you're in the moment nothing else seems to be happening. My son kicked a guy as the refs were pulling him apart and almost was disqualified and when they asked him why he said, "I thought he was getting away."

I have been railing against pixie-fu for over a decade now. I hate it and I always tell the author, "I can swallow FTL travel, I can go with psionic powers, but I know about the difference between men and women and you cannot convince me that this pixie can beat up a guy two hundred pounds heavier than she is.

On another note I had an instructor who was probably Vox's height, you know, five foot nothing, who threw a mean upper cut to the bottom of a heavy bag. I don't know about it stopping a guy but it looked and sounded like a bomb going off. I've never seen anyone but a guy who wanted a break go down after a groin hit in the ring.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 15, 2017 12:46 PM  

The Other Robot wrote:UKIP now has a strong female leader who wants SJW convergence for the party:
Women ruin everything

Seriously though, UKIP has outlived its usefulness. They achieved their only purpose, and now Nigel's off down t'the pub.
It should have been disbanded, but so long as there's money, power and virtue signalling involved, lefties are gonna try to take it over.

DJ | AMDG wrote:It's visual preaching of the worst sort. The good tribe is a rainbow of colors and the cultists all wear the same white mask
Could they be any more obvious about their mindset? Everybody is a middle-class American suburban White woman on the inside.

Blogger Rex Little April 15, 2017 12:46 PM  

Superhero comics and movies violate the laws of physics in many ways, not just with female fighters. How many times have you seen The Flash, moving at top speed, pick up another person without breaking stride, and that person suffers no effect from the sudden acceleration from zero to Mach 3? That's just one example of many I could cite.

Blogger Ken Prescott April 15, 2017 12:47 PM  

"I have been railing against pixie-fu for over a decade now. I hate it and I always tell the author, "I can swallow FTL travel, I can go with psionic powers, but I know about the difference between men and women and you cannot convince me that this pixie can beat up a guy two hundred pounds heavier than she is."

About the only way I can buy pixie-fu is if it's psionically-enhanced pixie-fu.

Anonymous Crew April 15, 2017 12:51 PM  

On average, males have 90% more upper body strength than females. That is 3 standard deviations more. So, the strongest 1-2% of women are only as strong as an average male.

On average, males have 60% more lower body strength than females.

I have not seen figures on speed, but if an under 15 male team can beat the US Women's Soccer team ...

Blogger Andrew Benson April 15, 2017 12:52 PM  

"Her fights included: punching someone in the balls, and dropping low and cutting their Achilles tendons."

Someone saw Cassie Cage in Mortal Kombat and thinks it's a realistic videogame. XD Next he'll think people can be stabbed in the chest with machetes and keep fighting just fine, cuz videogames. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoszUBtpDSM

Every idiot who thinks "hit him in the balls" is a great fight move needs to be smacked.

Blogger J Van Stry April 15, 2017 12:57 PM  

@104
I got the impression that they were all there because they were all criminals who had been arrested and given the option of going there instead of jail.

Which in my mind explained why everything was so messed up, and the poor behavior by everyone.

Blogger Servant April 15, 2017 1:04 PM  

@cail corishev

There is a series that I don't remember the name of our the author but I enjoyed the first book so much because the princess character was conniving and used her sex like a weapon without actually having sex with everyone.

Second book she learns how to fight. So do all the other women. She fights and kills professional soldiers.

If you care to look it up the line A god is a lie shows up multiple times and their godless religion is a humanist manifesto

Anonymous Precious April 15, 2017 1:04 PM  

This reminds me of an early scene in the Captain America Civil War movie. Most of the time the Black Widow, played by Scarlett Johansson, beats up well-trained fighters who are really just mooks for narrative purposes. She is doing that in the scene when she goes up against the super villain leading the mooks.

And physics suddenly reassert itself, he grabs her buck and fifteen cent frame and unceremoniously slams her body into the floor.

Blogger Servant April 15, 2017 1:19 PM  

Missed her take on two 260 pound plus dudes at the same time

Blogger frigger611 April 15, 2017 1:22 PM  

118 J Van

I don't think they're criminals, as "Oasis" seems to be "the last hope for mankind." Maybe someone else with a stronger stomach than mine can elaborate.

Synopsis reveals it is quite expensive to get people there, ($100 million each)so I doubt they'd do this for criminals, but instead for our brightest.

Might have been a good book (don't know) but the TV people of course destroy everything good, so too much cucking and virtue signaling for me, just in the space of 20 minutes or so.

Didn't last long enough to witness beatdowns by chick ninjas, but the female badass demeanor in the intelligence, science and soldier characters was already quite painfully evident.

Blogger Nationalist Flicka April 15, 2017 1:23 PM  

One time, a couple of years ago, my husband was doing an expat gig and since my kids were in high school, the days when we tagged along were, sadly, over.

He asked me to take a self defense course the local police offered since he was going to be gone for six months.

It was about six weeks long and to "graduate" you had to act out a scenario where you are attacked and fight back using techniques learned in the class.

As a woman, you learn really quick how weak, physically, you are when confronted with a large, strong man. I'd be hitting this guy with all my force and it was like a gnat landed on his arm.

Hell, my 16 year old son easily overpowers me now.

Blogger Michael Maier April 15, 2017 1:25 PM  

And Larry C's new anthology has a GRRRRRRRLLLL PWRRRRRRR cover... SMH.

Blogger Masha K. April 15, 2017 1:38 PM  

>>>And Larry C's new anthology has a GRRRRRRRLLLL PWRRRRRRR cover... SMH.

The original MHI has Julie front and center, with Owen crouching in the background. It almost made me not want to read it because I'm just not that into female leads. After the fact I asked someone what's up with the cover, and the person told me hot leather-clad females on covers sell books to both men (because eye candy) and women (because grrrrl power).

Blogger S1AL April 15, 2017 1:41 PM  

Authors don't get to pick their covers. That would be the art department.

Blogger szopen April 15, 2017 1:42 PM  

Ho, just've looked at the sidebar and VD is reading the witcher! I can't wait his opinion, as the stories include a lot of so called "Strong women" (tm) (author is rather left-wing, being atheist, and in the past was called feminist - by Polish standards): a real bitch character, and later one of the female characters is a real fighting machine :D :D

Though witch prose like that of Sapkowski's i always have to wonder how much of it can be really translated into English. The first story I've read by AS was "the grain of truth" and i was absolutely enthralled by the rhythm, style and the author's mastery of the language.

Blogger Commenter April 15, 2017 1:45 PM  

I can confirm the higher injury rate of females in normal military training. About half of us ended up with stress fractures. At my fastest, I was barely passing the female standards for the run. I joined for the challenge and to serve my country. I learned quickly that I was out of my depth on the physical side. I passed, barely, but suffer no delusions of super grrrrrl powers. There is Nothing like reality to dispel fantasy.

Blogger Servant April 15, 2017 1:50 PM  

Missed her take on two 260 pound plus dudes at the same time

Blogger Dire Badger April 15, 2017 2:07 PM  

I love superhero TV shows, and I just couldn't stomach any more of that retarded DC crap.

Black canary? really? going toe to toe with a guy that's been alive for thousands of years and probably is triple her weight?

Superheroes have jumped the shark so many times lately that the damned thing has dried into jerky. Is there ANY action Genre that isn't choked with stupid? Even Milfic seems to have been infected.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 15, 2017 2:10 PM  

@41 Cail Corishev

Siblings fight far more than would ever be allowed in school or most other places, and little brothers aren't known for pulling punches with their mean older sisters.
---

That is a good point. Especially very young kids like to fight a lot because it's fun.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants April 15, 2017 2:23 PM  

As a small woman who regularly engaged in fist fights as a girl, (I'm from Alabama, what else can I say?), who also was once married to a very abusive man, (yes, like does attract like), I've been in dozens & dozens of full on physical battles. Most girls that had 20 lbs & 4-5 inches on me could beat me like a stray dog. The idea of winning a physical battle with a man, even one the slighter side like my ex, at 5'9, 140 lbs., is a joke. You can always tell people who've never been punched in the face. I mean really, really punched, to the point that all of your bells have been rung & & you're counting your teeth with your tongue.

Blogger OGRE April 15, 2017 2:35 PM  

A woman fighting a man is at about the same disadvantages as a man fighting a chimpanzee.

Blogger Noah B The MacroAggressor April 15, 2017 2:37 PM  

@90 Women have the superpower of being able to instantly flip from compassionate and nurturing to ruthless deception and manipulation with no compunction whatsoever. It's a scary thing to behold.

Thread winner.

Blogger Sheila4g April 15, 2017 2:48 PM  

Thanks to all for a fascinating and informative thread with some excellent links. Don't think I've ever harbored illusions about female vs. male strength, but if I did, reading Vox for a few years dispelled any doubts.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 15, 2017 2:51 PM  

@108 James Higham

I gave up on Agent Carter in season 2 because they made her, the love interest of capt. america, a mudshark.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 15, 2017 2:54 PM  

@114 Rex Little
How many times have you seen The Flash, moving at top speed, pick up another person without breaking stride, and that person suffers no effect from the sudden acceleration from zero to Mach 3? That's just one example of many I could cite.
---

But..but.. Muh Speedforce!

Blogger Were-Puppy April 15, 2017 2:59 PM  

@130 Dire Badger

Black canary? really? going toe to toe with a guy that's been alive for thousands of years and probably is triple her weight?
---

I remember was last season or the one before where Black Canary was getting her ass handed to her every episode by average thugs - as soon as she lost element of surprise.

Anonymous Venom Froggy April 15, 2017 3:05 PM  

@BBGKB:
'What ever happened to the axiom "Never trust a man who hasn't been punched in the face." '
===============

What a stupid saying. I can understand a man who's never been in a REAL fight would be ignorant and naive about violence coming out the gate, but simply...never having had a knuckle sandwich doesn't make him a thief and a liar and a sociopath. And it certainly doesn't make him a fool.

Having physical violence thrust upon you does not grant wisdom and virtue and intelligence, it just familiarizes you with pain and brutality.

Nothing more.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 15, 2017 3:11 PM  

One thing the old Space Opera tended to avoid was these strong female characters getting in fights. No Princess of Mars ever carried anything bigger than a slim dagger, or maybe a pistol loaded with radium bullets in an extreme case.

Anonymous Monkey Boy April 15, 2017 3:16 PM  

Fight scenes are designed for the purpose of being entertaining, not realistic, especially in film. Creativity is far more important than realism.

Realistic fight scenes in film have a tendency to be boring. I'd take a Jackie Chan fight scene with all it's speed and creativity, over the "realistic" fight scenes in Jack Reacher any day of the week.

If you want to see realistic fights then watch actual fights etc combat sports, don't waste your time watching films and them complaining about it.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 15, 2017 3:18 PM  

La Fille Furie should look like Marine Le Pen

@15 Lazarus
I think you mean Marion Le Pen.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 15, 2017 3:18 PM  

If I say "Agent Scully," those old enough will probably remember her as a tough chick. But I rewatched most of the X-Files a couple years ago, and was surprised to see that Scully almost never got in a fight. In fact, she frequently got knocked down if she got too close to anything physical, and Mulder often had to save her. The FBI had trained her to shoot, and probably given her some other self-defense training, but she didn't roundhouse-kick a single person.

Things sure have changed in 20 years.

Blogger Masha K. April 15, 2017 3:24 PM  

@143: Actually I remember David Duchovny complaining that Skully won every fight she was in while Mulder always got the crap beat out of him. It could've just been that she avoided the fights she couldn't win, being smarter of the two. I honestly don't remember her fighting a whole lot.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 15, 2017 3:27 PM  

I write quite a bit for pleasure and on rare occasions money.

My general rules for female combatants

In unarmed combat baring extreme disparity of skill and attitude and fitness, no woman can beat a man except by ambush.

In melee/strength weapon combat the same applies though swords and similar weapons can be a limited equalizer in unarmored combat and in such combat ambush scenario attacks can be lethal. Even a woman can shove a dagger through a man after all.

In a long duration "battle" with multiple rounds over time fired women are at a disadvantage do to less stamina and the likelihood an incidental injury takes them out but a women succeeding and winning in such a fight is plausible

In a short duration exchange of gunfire women are at only a limited disadvantage to men, size still matters and men can sometimes fight longer and through greater injuries but its rare and there is a case I read about a female police officer taking a a .357 though the heart, fighting on and winning against a male foe.

Less realistically super powers can change the rules but physical based super powers should probably follow similar rules. To use Marvel here She Hulk should not be as strong as Doc Samson much less the Hulk and nor should Marvel Sif be as strong as any of the male warrior Asgardians

Mental powers and magic are to taste.

Also with ultra tech weapons including piloted war suits, disassembler nano swarms or real life drones for that matter, it comes down to equipment, skill and attitude , the machine is the hero anyway

Oh and for the D&D crowd a house rule I use with some groups,

Female humans and on occasions when I allow them elves ,half elves and half orc characters lowest stat must be strength . When playing with 3d6 or 4d6 drop one in order, a swap to any stat is permitted

This does not apply to dwarves or gnomes or similar which are not sexually dismorphic the way humans are or to halflings all of whom regardless of gender must have strength as the lowest stat

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 15, 2017 3:27 PM  

Venom Froggy wrote:Having physical violence thrust upon you does not grant wisdom and virtue and intelligence, it just familiarizes you with pain and brutality.

Nothing more.

Would you prefer it if it were formulated as; "Never trust somebody who is unfamiliar with pain and brutality"?
As that's exactly the point. Not that getting punched in the face makes somebody trustworthy, but you don't know how someone who is completely unfamiliar with pain and brutality will react when they get exposed, up close and personal, to severe pain and violent brutality.

Some just curl up and surrender.
Some absolutely lose control.
Some maintain composure and keep fighting.
Almost everybody pulls up short for at least a few seconds.
Either way, you need to know before you get into a fight.

Anonymous Nathan April 15, 2017 3:35 PM  

@93,

When writing, Wright's been aware of the differences in strength between sexes for a long time. When "Ami" fights, she knows she is disadvantaged, fights accordingly, and comes to a draw/retreat more often than other female superheroes. It was a shame to see people put him on blast because he dared put a woman into a fight.

Blogger Masha K. April 15, 2017 3:45 PM  

I've wondered about something for a while... Is it possible that consumers of fiction simply don't enjoy reading/watching a man beat up a woman because it's so ingrained in us that it's wrong. And for the longest time it hasn't been a problem because most fictional females had men protect them from being in those situations. Now we demand women actually to BE in the fray, but in a way we still want them protected, if only by giving them unrealistic fighting powers. I might be completely off base here. But has anyone seen Olympus has Fallen? How much did you cringe when the woman was getting beat up by the terrorists? Would you get the same feeling if that were a man?

Blogger Cail Corishev April 15, 2017 3:53 PM  

@144, Masha, I could be forgetting some too, but I think it's what you said: Mulder got beaten up more because he get into more fights in the first place, while Scully tried to keep her distance, knowing she was doomed hand-to-hand. They'd do it completely differently if they made the show today.

Farscape is another interesting example. Aeryn is supposed to be much stronger and faster than John, because she's a member of a species that was genetically enhanced for military service. So she beats him easily in the pilot, but then they just kinda forget about that, and John takes the lead in most fighting for the rest of the series. I think it was partly because the actors are who they are, so John was obviously stronger, and they probably didn't have the effects/budget then for a lot of girl-fu. Plus, no one except Gammas wants to watch a romance between a man and a woman who can bench-press him.

Blogger Jed Mask April 15, 2017 4:00 PM  

LOL.

ALL the "strong female characters" I need y'all come straight from GOD'S WORD (King James Version Holy Bible [KJV]_!:

Miriam, Ruth, Deborah, Rahab and Mary (the mother of Jesus)to name a notable few.

You want "strong female characters"?

Use "GOD'S EXAMPLES" in His *His*tory Book.

They're all real women too. Amen.

~ Bro. Jed

Anonymous Manichaean Skate Punk April 15, 2017 4:03 PM  

And in an alternate Indiana Jones universe, where Indiana Jones is still a pimply teenager, there's Abner Ravenwood's other daughter who thought she was a bad arse ...

Until she stupidly tried to show off her martial arts skills in front of a well-armed ghazi within the Kasbah, and was summarily gunned down like the stupid unarmed entitled princess that she was.

Indiana Jones, of course, learns a lesson that lasts for his entire life: you need a gun, all the time.

As for my preference, I rather like the idea of creating strong female characters so they may be killed horribly by their own hubris as useful learning experiences for the readers.

"OH LOOK ... stupid kewpie doll wifey thought she'd actually divorce the Russian crime boss! HAHAHAHAHA!"

So many wonderfully useful examples. :-)

So many enjoyable learning experiences. :-)

Blogger Masha K. April 15, 2017 4:13 PM  

@149 That's actually the latest SJW complaint: setting up a strong female, then having the man do most of the fighting. They call it The Trinity Syndrome (after Trinity in The Matrix). Because the womyn now have to get all the glory, all the time.

Like, I enjoyed The Martian movie, but the fact changing the script to have the female captain do the final rescue (which made zero in-story sense) was serious SJW pandering.

Blogger RobertT April 15, 2017 4:34 PM  

and my favorite ... "by the time you know you're in a knife fight, it's too late."

Blogger Ron April 15, 2017 4:49 PM  

Anyone who has fought an opponent 3 inches taller and 20lbs heavier, understands exactly why grrl power is utter and complete bullshit.

Anonymous kfg April 15, 2017 4:53 PM  

@139: " . . . physical violence . . ."

. . . a.k.a. "reality."

Anonymous BBGKB April 15, 2017 5:09 PM  

Oh and for the D&D crowd a house rule I use with some groups, Female humans and on occasions when I allow them elves ,half elves and half orc characters lowest stat must be strength

Trigglypuff has great Strength to haul around all her fat, certainly her STR is greater than her comeliness/charisma

I enjoyed The Martian movie, but the fact changing the script to have the female captain do the final rescue

In the book was the only one to read 1960's scify a Niggagenius?

Blogger RobertDWood April 15, 2017 5:45 PM  

This is what a good comment looks like, informative and interesting. Thank you.

Blogger Last Redoubt April 15, 2017 5:46 PM  

@28. Zach

@Avalanche


Marc MacYoung is writing a "Violence for Writers" series. I don't know if he addresses "GRRL power!", but I know he has pet peeves like "no, getting shot with a handgun does not cause you to fly backwards three feet"

I found Marc's site at http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ to be useful in deflating a lot of myths about martial arts, etc.,

Also buried in there somewhere is somewhat-funny story of one of his ex-girlfriends who from the description was likely borderline.

Blogger Masha K. April 15, 2017 6:30 PM  

>> I rather like the idea of creating strong female characters so they may be killed horribly by their own hubris as useful learning experiences for the readers.

Someone should write a story about the bull statue and the Girl Power statue on Wall Street both coming to life, and hilarity that ensues.

Anonymous Nightowl2548 April 15, 2017 6:31 PM  

Had the misfortune of watching some of a Netflix series called Sense 8, should have known what to expect when the credits listed is as created by the transvestite Wachoski Brothers, not to mention one of the creepiest scenes in a credit sequence ever, (the ice cream cone scene.) Sure enough the biggest baddest fighter is a little tiny feminine Korean girl, who saves the black guys butt in a fight, (sure.) These sick dudes have made a living off this fake Kung Fu Princess thing. They also seem to have a real life sexual fetish for lesbian women, one so intense both have taken the extreme step of transforming themselves into so called "transwomen" in order to attract one to live out their perversions. This "Sense 8" has 8 random strangers somehow share their minds and bodies, of course homosexuality is way out of proportion and gayness is thrust into our faces everywhere, one character is even a "transexual lesbian" just like the deeply sick men who wrote it. In this series it sort of reminds me a bit of season one of "Heroes" except instead of "save the cheerleader save the world" one ordinary cop type male gets a subliminal message to save the transvestite instead. Save yourself the trouble of suffering through this dreck. The creepy ice cream cone scene in the credits should be your first warning as what to expect.

Anonymous kfg April 15, 2017 7:06 PM  

" . . . the biggest baddest fighter is a little tiny feminine Korean girl . . ."

If a Korean girl ran into me at full speed, I'm not sure I'd even notice. Inertial mass matters.

Blogger Fenris Wulf April 15, 2017 7:25 PM  

I'm hopelessly bad at sports and have zero fighting experience. Even I had enough sense to avoid the Princess-Fu nonsense. My girl assassin uses the shinobi approach, i.e., disguise yourself as a peasant or something innocuous, avoid a fair fight at all costs, and accomplish your objective with minimal risk to yourself.

Blogger alt-deplorable.jezko April 15, 2017 7:50 PM  

this is not limited to sci-fi/fantasy. the same strong female characters are being promoted in any literary or artistic genre. any ad/commercial (the male is a good-for-nothing goof), newspaper article, book in the mainstream is infested with it. then, of course, this seeps into real life and you get three strong females trying to subdue a rapefugee to much of the world's amusement.

And I get the need for a bit of escapism, none of us is a superman (not even a batman), yet the character exists, why should women not have their own? However, if it's the only game in town, there is something seriously wrong about that.

I think the worst thing when a man fights (at least on the ground) a woman (at least if she's not completely unfortunate in the looks department) is the possibility that the excitement might show (wink wink).

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 9:41 PM  

@72 "Avalanche,
I like the book the gift of fear . I got it for my wife."

Yeah, I like that book, too, but only as an as an introduction to mindset because (weirdly!) he's ANTI-gun?! I cannot respect that!

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 10:22 PM  

@87 "From discussions I've had with women who engage in Combat Sports the mental response to physical violence is simply different as well. Most of the people I train with all the grey that when you absorb that first strike you get an intense rush and excitement. None of the women I have trained with that I have asked about this describe a similar response"

(Couple decades ago) Back when I studied (Chen style) and taught (Yang style) tai chi, we occasionally brought in a master to hold a seminar. Brilliant and great fun, because the other teacher and I got to spend hours and hours working with him outside the seminar.

There's an exercise called Cloud Hands, where you lightly touch the back-of-wrists together and one (he) would slowly move his hands randomly; you had to stick, to stay in contact, no matter how or where he moved (mostly just in circles -- it was a sensitivity training)...

The first year, I lost contact a couple times and the second time, he reached in very fast and slapped my face pretty hard. He described to me and the others that -- having lost contact -- he could not know if I was going to attack, so the response is instant attack. We then continued, but I was .... stunned and disoriented: my brain running in monkey circles screaming "he slapped me! Focus! He actually slapped me! Come on: FOCUS! But he slapped me!" (I was completely scattered!)

The next year, we did the same drill, and when I lost contact (only once then!) he ALSO slapped my face pretty hard; but to my pleasure, I 'sank' in and focused completely and maintained connection after.

No question, (most) girls do NOT get the rough-and-tumble in their upbringing that boys do -- and it really makes a diff!

Anonymous Avalanche April 15, 2017 10:26 PM  

@95 "f only there was some kind of small, reliable, easily portable device which could allow a woman to overcome a man ...propel a small but dense object at high speeds. Anyone know of some device like that?"

I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.... {wink}

Blogger F.D. Stephens April 15, 2017 10:41 PM  

A timely post. Every word is correct.

Last week I saw a recommendation for Rachel Kushner's The Flamethrowers. I was put off when I saw it was New York magazine’s number one book of the year and named a Best Book of 2013 by the SJW hivemind. But I did take a look at the first few pages, in which she pens a fight scene between soldiers. In other words, a fight to the death.

It's the first chapter, set in WWI, and an Italian member of a motorcycle battalion crashes in the woods where he is attacked by a lone German soldier. This is how it goes down.

"Valera pulled the heavy brass casing free and went for a dump tackle. The German was down. Valera tumbled after him. [A tussle over the motorcycle headlamp casing ensues] Valera grounded him, kneed the German in the face, and pried his fingers from the headlamp. There was, after all, no penalty here for foul play, no one to flash him a red card in the quiet woods. ... the German reared up, trying to shoulder-charge him. Valera brained him with the headlamp."

The reviews call this sort of thing 'exhilarating', 'a book that burns so hot', 'a white-hot ember', and so on.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 15, 2017 11:05 PM  

@165 Avalanche

The first year, I lost contact a couple times and the second time, he reached in very fast and slapped my face pretty hard.
---

The best martial art teachers try to kill you every class :P

Blogger Michael Maier April 15, 2017 11:39 PM  

Masha K. wrote:>>>And Larry C's new anthology has a GRRRRRRRLLLL PWRRRRRRR cover... SMH.

The original MHI has Julie front and center, with Owen crouching in the background. It almost made me not want to read it because I'm just not that into female leads. After the fact I asked someone what's up with the cover, and the person told me hot leather-clad females on covers sell books to both men (because eye candy) and women (because grrrrl power).


Julie's too perfect, makes her existence damn annoying. Her only saving grace is that she's nice enough that it doesn't ruin her character.

Blogger JP April 16, 2017 12:27 AM  

That's the manliest woman I've ever seen. No wonder the other women couldn't beat her. Today if we were talking we'd be wondering which pronoun to use.

Blogger weka April 16, 2017 1:29 AM  

Yeah, right. People forget how the empire was won.

Or why European men have upper body strength.

It is worth noting that at age 56 I generally scale Crossfit weights to the elite women level. And I am the slowest guy in the gym.

Women, even highly trained women, are not that strong.

Anonymous 100pctAmerican April 16, 2017 7:10 AM  

These comments have been instructive. I agree that most definitely, women have been given a false narrative about how they can overpower a man. It really is pretty silly when it appears in movies.

I remember watching "Continuum" where one of the "bad guys" was some short, tiny woman who would beat the ever-lovin' snot out of men. The one that really got me was when she took some "special forces" type guy (four times her size) and knocked him out. I laughed out loud.

Sure, I have some fire in me, but I know enough that my strongest weapon against a man is simply this: intuition. Women have very strong intuition and can usually sense when something is amiss. The problem is when they don't pay attention to it.

Once when I was in college, I held open the door for some guy and he started to follow me, begging me to let him walk me to my car (and my car was parked about a half-mile away).

I hurried to another woman I saw who was in one of my classes, calling out to her as though she was a close friend. She was getting into her car and I quickly explained the situation and asked if she'd drive me to my car. She immediately agreed.

If anything, women need to remember how people responded to the "Agents" in "The Matrix." Run.

Blogger Xmas April 16, 2017 8:00 AM  

Grrl power is wearing sap gloves and still getting hit square in the face.

https://twitter.com/Mom_intha_Raw/status/853450907849240576

Anonymous Joe Author April 16, 2017 2:28 PM  

In the end, the marketplace will decide what characters will be read, not gatekeepers.

Read what you want. Create what you want.

Anonymous Full-Fledged Fiasco April 16, 2017 4:16 PM  

Remember when Ronda Rousey said she could beat heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez and there was nerds out there arguing that she would be able to do it? Classic.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 16, 2017 4:38 PM  

BBGKB wrote:Oh and for the D&D crowd a house rule I use with some groups, Female humans and on occasions when I allow them elves ,half elves and half orc characters lowest stat must be strength

Trigglypuff has great Strength to haul around all her fat, certainly her STR is greater than her comeliness/charisma



You have a point though I am not sure Trigglypuff qualifies as a human. Monster class of some kind in 3e terms, 1/2 CR with annoyance and smother attacks

Blogger DJ | AMDG April 16, 2017 9:21 PM  

If by "marketplace" you mean the progressive, agenda driven narrative makers in mass media, publishing, and Hollywood who control a vast majority of the distribution channels not to mention content creation and production companies, then yes. You are correct.

Blogger jahangir khan April 17, 2017 5:56 AM  

Snapchat Online Login

Anonymous Joe Author April 17, 2017 10:03 AM  

No, DJ, marketplace, as in the arena of competitive or commercial dealings; as in the general public, who ultimately decides what they want to read and what they want created.

Anonymous Athor Pel April 17, 2017 10:39 AM  

"7. Anonymous Kreator April 15, 2017 5:49 AM
Moot and silly question but regardless I will ask it:

What about videogames?..."



An avatar in a game-world operates within the rules of that game-world, with the game-world being made to serve the game mechanics and the need to make the game fun.

Characters in fiction are normally presented as flesh and blood people with all that that implies. If the author wants to keep disbelief suspended then he needs to work within those earthly limits.

Anonymous Clay April 17, 2017 7:31 PM  

Though I don't believe wimmen have the wherewithal to fly carrier-based aircraft, I do think they might have a chance at flying the A-10 Warthog.

So I've heard, anyway.

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